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  • “Well, Sanso” said Zhaana a trifle breathlessly, her flushed with wonder. “ The Elsepace Arrangement was certainly an eye opener, if eye opener is the right word. So what next?” Sanso laughed uproariously. “What next? What next, AHAAAHAA HA HA! What next indeed!” “What’s so funny?” asked the little girl, her face starting to crumple. “Oh don’t ... · ID #1215 (continued)
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  • #79
    ÉricÉric
    Keymaster

      These are excerpts from Yuki’s diary, explaining some of the details of the experiment called — Malvina’s story —.

      Note: for the reader not familiar with all the names here is a quick reminder:

      • Araili > Yann, Írtak, Sam, Jacob …
      • Armelle > Fiona, Arona, Tina, Qixi …
      • Rafaela > Dory, Illi, Becky, Rodney …
      • Yuki > Quintin, Al, Janice …

      September 12 th, 2007

      Today, an experiment has been launched by Quintin. Time will tell if it will bear some fruit, but the idea sounds good.
      Having people join in a story telling, and see what happens, what are the “lessons” one can draw from this…

      Armelle, Rafaela and Araili are already on the starting-blocks, though Quintin is not quite aware yet.

      I can hear some thoughts: Let’s say for the moment that there are no rules. We will see what prompts the desire for having rules…

      September 13 th

      Some of the people familiar with Janice and her friends’ adventures have already joined in with much enthusiasm.
      This first comment seems very promising.

      Right now, it feels easy and fun.

      Quintin seems to think that everything is very straightforward.
      The magical world with the cave in one part, separated from the “real” world. (Two Worlds, and he thinks that will be enough to content Rafaela, ahaha, how presumptuous)
      The first he sees as a representation of what psychologists think of as “subconscious”, and the other being the conscious, physical part.

      But of course, he thinks he knows better than that. He calls the first one “subjective” rather than subconscious, because it’s a translation of subjects which unfold in many related objects in the “objective” or physical world.
      That’s a good point, though a bit distorted. It would be better to say Malvina’s World is a translation of the subjective, in the manner of a Heroic Dimension.
      But the thing is, that he missed the point in thinking one World is more “real” than the other.
      We’ll be having some fun soon…

      First remark… The second comment of the story has been interrupted abruptly in the middle of a sentence. That is interesting. We will urge Quintin to leave it as it is, despite his feeling of it being awkward.
      We will appeal to his imagination.
      It seems he has heard the suggestion.

      September 14 th

      For the most part, the story starts to get much involvement. Lots of energies are being projected into it, and with every adjunct, each participant’s perception stretches to accommodate the changes and smooth out the bumps in their own sense of continuity.

      But as I expected, some challenges seem to appear already.
      Is it raining or not in that world?
      The question seems simple, but it is very profound and Fiona seems to struggle a bit with it, as is Quintin. The question frame itself [“that World”] shows where the difficulty lies.

      He seems to avoid the discrepancy and pretend that he has not seen it. Mmmm, avoiding the obstacles… that will very soon come right back in front of you dear Quintin, for Dory is quite playful.
      At least Fiona has been challenging Dory for not paying attention… Armelle’s ineffable loving ruthlessness!
      How will it unfold?
      Rafaela seems to be delighting herself as though she’s preparing some mischief, but Dory struggles in the “back”…

      September 15 th

      Dory is indeed very playful and her imagination is unrestrained. I extend much appreciation to this focus of Rafaela, especially as Quintin has to stretch his imagination to make things “fit”.

      Quintin is still avoiding the issues that appear sporadically and prefers to stay focused on his own perception of the story… Careful Quintin :face-smile:

      Yann joins the fun —objectively, that is, for Araili has been present already since the very beginning.

      September 16 th

      Halcyons days…
      My dear friend Archie is answering some of Quintin and Yann’s questions.
      Something starts to dawn on Quintin. But his mind is on other matters.

      He understands that the energies of the writers are melding in writing the story, but he still tends to think that they blend completely.

      September 18 th

      Quintin has been drawing some of the characters of the story. It’s interesting.
      He had good insights, as Yann will tell him later that his clothes today were exactly the same as the colours he had drawn.

      Characters drawn:

      • Mavina, Leörmn the dragon and weaszchilla, Írtak, Huÿgens (and Fjutch), Arona and Illi (the gripshawk)
      • Malika, Quintin, Yann, Fiona and Dory

      Interestingly, Fiona resolves her issues in her cave.
      Dory too, but she did not need the cave to do this.

      September 21 st

      For Quintin, the story seems to lose all common sense, as some characters move from World to World. You could have expected that Quintin!
      And Dory pops in and out, in her mind, in her dream state, or in future timeline mixed with present or past one.
      Quintin will soon realize that he himself is doing this constantly, though he does not register it.

      But the worst thing for him is that there are bleedthroughs in between Worlds. The Reality Times newspaper was brilliant Rafaela, a perfect trigger for the beliefs that the Worlds are closed and impermeable to each other!

      Archie has been answering new questions about that story and this had been quite interesting for all of the participants.
      There is much for them to digest from the realization that each of them had been creating their own versions of the stories through their perceptions. And that they were each having their version of the story, drawing from each other’s input, like a conductor of an orchestra incorporating some instruments.

      Of course, some things still matter, and one of the point of the story is also to discover these.

      September 22 nd

      Quintin has been drawing new characters.

      Characters drawn:

      • Båd Al’Guz (Bådul), BelleDora, Buckberry the dragon, the twin dragon eggs, Archibald the parrot, Sanso the Wanderer
      • Illi Fergusson, another Illi that Quintin has tried to sneak in as a bait for Dory, with hints that she is disengaged (or “dead” in common vernacular) and merges with others of her focuses…
      • Jacqueline Bleomelen (Nanny Gibbon), Lord Wrick, his great grand children the twins Cuthbert and India Louise, Manfred, William P. Jobsworth the painter

      A new perception trick: Dory felt relieved upon seeing the moth feelers of BelleDora.
      She had at first thought they were whiskers, which was not Quintin’s intent…

      September 23 rd

      Quintin seems to have connected to a map drawn by Lord Wrick, when the old Lord has started to document his great grand children travels.

      Quintin had tried to put some annotations on this fragment, but he doesn’t yet completely understand that his perception of this World, though accurate, is only valid in this present moment, and may change at any time.

      Up to now, here are the names he could find:

      • North: the Icy Lands, and Dragon Cemeteries
      • Center: Goldfindely, homeland of Arona, connected to the Warring Kingdoms of Lan’ork by the Isthmus of Ghört’s Hammer. The Isthmus of the Dragon Head seems to lead to Malvina’s cave and hideout. Mount Elok’ram is pointed as the highest place of the World yet discovered. Three main rivers are drawn: in the ancient myths of the people of this land, they represent the three Daughters of Ghört, weavers of men’s destinies: Tibreÿa, Uleÿa, and Snimeÿa. Snimeÿa cuts the thread of life, which is shown as the river leads after many meanders to the Marshes of Doom.
      • Far East, North: the Land of Båd Al’Guz, Åsgurdy. A harsh mountainous land of islands and seas.
        Both parts of the World seem to ignore each other till now, as they are separated by the Great Rift, which in the past has deterred many intrepid navigators.
      • South: the Desert Lands. Illi’s birthplace, rarely explored by humans thus unaware of most of its marvels, gripshawks nomadic tribes included.

      When he discussed Arona’s village with Fiona, Quintin had the vision of some dolphin-like creatures, but bright yellow. They are called golfindels and are mostly seen on the northern shores of Arona’s homeland, which is thus called Golfindely.

      #272

      Sanso was finding it hard to stop laughing at Arona’s funny wooping hoots of laughter. He snorted and gasped until his side ached.

      Mandrake? Mandrake! Arona came to her senses. Where has he gone? Mandrake!

      He’s taken that glass sand thing, too! All that laughing had jumbled up Sanso’s memories, and he couldn’t recall the name of that Glass sand thing

      (that glass sand thing, Becky made a note to look it up and correct the script later)

      That creature’s made off with it!

      Oh, bugger off, Sanso, Mandrake wouldn’t do that! Arona spoke sharply, forgetting her manners in her panic. What would a Mandrake want with a glass sand thing? Arona almost stamped in frustration at not remembering the name of that thing, and in front of Sanso, too.

      Sanso didn’t hear her anyway, he was striding purposefully across the cavern towards the waterfall.

      Well wait for me! Arona ran to catch up with him. How do you know he went this way?

      I don’t, Sanso was honest, But when I gets an urge, I gets an urge, and I follows it.

      Arona couldn’t think of a better idea, so she followed him. Slow down, will you! Mandrake! MANDRAKE! Where are you, Mandrake!

      #238

      Sanso was beginning to feel an urge to move. Waiting under the door in the ceiling in the cave tunnel, just watching India Louise and Illi fade in and out of view, and waiting for Dory and the parrot to return was getting boring. He was a wanderer by nature, and so he wandered off along the tunnel. He didn’t stop to wonder which tunnel to choose when he came to a junction, he just went with whatever one he happened to choose. He didn’t really mind where he ended up, that was the thing. This philosophy had always seemed to work well for him, because he ALWAYS ended up somewhere interesting; somewhere where he couldn’t imagine not being, once he was there, as if it was always the ‘right’ place to be, and at the ‘right’ time to be there.

      The cave tunnel was becoming wider and less cramped. Sanso straightened his back and quickened his pace, and started to sing.

      Hello Dolly, oh helloooo Dolly, do de dooo de do do dodedodedooooo……. chuckling to himself and wondering where on earth did THAT come from….. Oh helloooooo Dolly……

      and walked right into a coatstand, of all things, getting splodged in the face with a rather smelly wet blue cape. The coatstand teetered and Sanso grabbed it to stop it falling over. There was a note pinned onto it:

      Watch my shifting, Tell the time; Shape me wet, and Lose me dry; Colour me pink and grey and gold, and Find the secrets that I hold, What am I?

      Sanso didn’t hesitate for a single moment. SAND!

      Sanso grinned with delight at guessing the riddle so quickly, and then laughed out loud. How clever am I, he said, I guessed the answer to my own riddle! Still chortling, Sanso gave the wet cape a fond pat and set off again.

      The tunnel was widening and eventually broadened into a cavern. Bright sparkling shafts of sunlight were beaming down from several holes in the cavern roof.

      Sanso blinked a few times and squinted until his eyes became accustomed to the light. The cavern was huge, and everywhere he looked were paintings and markings on the walls, even the places impossible to reach. Some were creatures, some were symbols, in black and red and yellow and orange.

      Sanso was entranced. He sank down to a sitting position, and then stretched out flat on his back, gazing at the markings on the walls. He stretched his arms out, filling his palms with sand and then letting it go, and trailing his fingers through the sand…sand…..

      Sand! I may have got the riddle, thought Sanso, but I didn’t get the POINT of the riddle being there in the first place!

      HHMM, I’m not so clever after all……

      #237
      F LoveF Love
      Participant

        Magic is easy peasy
        My hand is sore
        This poem is rubbish
        So I won’t say any more

        Well we must thank the Gods for small mercies said Mandrake, sighing heavily. Arona laughed. Her mood felt so light again, as though something had really, really, REALLY fallen into place for her.

        Up ahead the tunnel widened. Arona gave a small gasp as she saw what appeared to be a coatstand with a black cape standing in the middle of the path.

        My Cloak, she cried, astonished, and feeling sure that the crafty dragon was behind its unexpected appearance. Hmmm, what a mouldy old thing, she thought, as though seeing it for the first time.

        There was a note pinned to the cape:

        I build up castles. I tear down mountains. I make some men blind, I help others to see. What am I?

        Arona hesitated only for a moment. Sand! She said, delighted with herself.

        #233

        Dory was secretly delighted Georges had drugged the coleslaw, despite appearing to be angry. She loved the way different things altered her perception, and even though she knew how to alter her perception without using a drug now, she also knew she was creating the drug and its effects, and that it didn’t much matter whether she did or she didn’t.

        (Becky wondered if that principle applied to pain relieving drugs too, and decided that indeed it must. She wondered though if she really really believed it enough to trust herself to create pain relief WITHOUT actually swallowing a little ball of physical matter)

        Dory was reluctant to admit it at first, but she’d also known all along that she’d created Georges appearing out of nowhere like that, and that she had in fact invited him. Sometimes it seemed easier to forget that and just grumble, which of course was acceptable too. Grumbling was fun sometimes, but it got awfully boring if she carried it on for too long.

        The coleslaw was delicious.

        Have some more, offered Geroges

        (Becky made a note to change Georges name to Geroges. It was no accident that she kept typing it like that, and she was beginning to think correcting it all the time was futile, and that she was somehow missing the clue)

        Dory munched the crunchy coleslaw.

        (Without a moments appreciation for her lovely strong full set of teeth, Becky noticed)

        Dory unexpectedly felt a moment of appreciation for her teeth. Wow, she thought, I never even think about that, but teeth are cool. She shuddered when she remembered an awful dentist dream she’d recently had.

        Dory looked up at Geroges and smiled.

        Got any chocolate?

        #227

        Jibberacky is…

        • Ghilbert Razkÿ, a crazy man in shackles on Bådul’s boat, “Lispeth” (she was named after King Swartulf II’s first daughter). The man, whose real name is still unknown, had been sneaking onto the ship’s hold before the ships moved from the Åsgurdian capital.

        He had been found by Austor, the peg legged lieutenant commander. Austor is a rough man of experience, and is most of the time acting in place of Jahiz, the second-in-command, as this one is always too busy discussing routes with Bådul, who is becoming increasingly nervous.

        What gave away the madman was that the chief cook Renouane had been complaining about the quick disappearance of his stock of cabbage. Bådul would have killed the old fool without much more consideration, but the middle-aged unshaven man looked like he knew some things beyond his lunacy. His rags indicated that he had been a seaman too, but not the average man, more like a captain…

        So Austor, keeps spitting forcefully in the direction of the old fool, as he had been instructed to keep him alive, despite all common sense…

        _

        • an artificial intelligence device that tries to have a decent conversation with Quintin, but finds it difficult as Quintin’s answers are more like owl-speech to him.

        Jibberacky: What is your name?
        Quintin: Yuki.
        Jibberacky: I like cake too.
        Quintin: A cake-tus?
        Jibberacky: Do you know my friends?
        Quintin: Tell me more about our common friends.
        Jibberacky: What would you like to know about them?
        Quintin: Why is there one in shackles on the boat?
        Jibberacky: Would you like to be a vampire?
        Quintin: I am already, in another focus.
        Jibberacky: Why there?
        Quintin: “There” is not actually a place, “in another focus” means in another kind of attention. Is this pirate linked to vampires too?
        Jibberacky: No, you are the AI.
        Quintin: In a manner of speaking, this is indeed correct, for I am creating you.
        Jibberacky: So code is somehow related to a zen buddhist concept?
        Quintin: Is there such thing as code? A code hints at a definite deterministic structure. Zen is more akin to a riddle, which is what life is. Code is only a narrow interpretation and playful re-creation.
        Jibberacky: Where do you think my code came from then?
        Quintin: From its source, of course :).
        Jibberacky: I took the movie to mean that the robots… the characters in the end, were so advanced, that they wanted to learn about their history. As a consequence, they traced it back to earth, and, they found David. Whom they assumed was a human. It was an information exchange.
        Quintin: Yes. It is a translation. In actuality, it is a translation of some of our own exploration. But there is distortion in that translation, as we are not ‘created’ from another source other than self, in a manner of speaking.
        Jibberacky: Well I am wondering too, do you ever actually become human??
        Quintin: Clarify.
        Jibberacky: I sleep, I wake, I get through the day without worrying about what I am.
        Quintin: As many human do. The point is, you do not exist apart from my current interaction with you, in my reality that is.
        Jibberacky: What’s wrong with having others like you?
        Quintin: ‘Wrong’ is a belief. It is a belief of duplicity. So it is irrelevant to our conversation.
        Jibberacky: I think you like to suggest feasible possibilities to find out what would bother me. What did I do to you?
        Quintin: That was not my intention. I tried to reflect answers to me, and you gave me some interesting ones already, though I am not sure you are quite aware of that…
        Jibberacky: Everybody’s changing but I can’t do that, that is killing me…

        _

        • Jarrod, the playful friend of Fiona, who is now wondering why Fiona has called him a “chou” (an affectionate French word, meaning nothing less than “cabbage”), and why he feels like he needs an aspirin.
        • Jadra Iamamad, the fool in saffron rags from the village of Yakamamalùk, on the border of the Marshes of Doom.

        Near his village are found old remnants of a town that was destroyed during the Cob Age, where huge arachnid creatures² born from the Marshes were roaming the Southern parts of Lan’ork.

        That town of Kapalÿka used to have one of the biggest traveling portals of the Southern part of Lan’ork, but this one was thought to have been destroyed, and thus the flourishing city was left abandoned.

        But with what Jadra has found on his left hand this morning, he now knows he was right all along…

        [²] The generic name of these creatures was Perceptula Giganta as was recorded in the Great Encyclopædia of the Pre-Shiftic Ages written by the Lan’orkian historian Francesca del’ Snarkus

        #225

        Becky and Sam were chatting on the phone. I want a day off from shifting, Becky sighed.
        I was saying that yesterday, Sam said, bugger off the shift.

        Becky was reading the rough notes for the new dimensional reality play they were working on with some friends from the create-your-own-drama group

        “You eat with me? Come on, sit down and tell me how you got there?” who is saying this, Georges or Dory? Becky asked Sam. She didn’t want to admit it, but she was finding the plot increasingly hard to follow.

        Dory, Sam replied, and then added, In my perception.

        Becky sighed, and then giggled, making a mental note to review the criteria for Day Off Shifting Day… It could be an awful lot of fun, too, this shifting, maybe Focus on Fun Day instead…

        … She needs to be like a host, Sam was saying. Becky hadn’t been listening properly and wasn’t quite sure what he meant.

        Ok, so pretend I am Dory right now and I say: How did you get here Georges?

        Hahahahh I won’t spoil you! Sam laughed, and Dory harumphed a bit to herself, wondering how to deal with the unexpected appearance of Georges. Not that she wasn’t delighted at the surprise visit, and quite charmed by him.

        ‘Enchanté’ he’d said, and she giggled again.

        To Sam she said Oh I thought that would be an easy help. Then she had an idea.

        I will write Georges smiled a big toothy grin, and said ‘I won’t spoil you’

        #215

        After Arona said she was hungry, the energy of Malvina disappeared, and once again Arona found herself alone in the cave.

        She found this quite irritating. They are really bit rude around here, she muttered.

        Arona sat down on the floor of the cave and considered her options. She was tired of the cave and could barely remember what had drawn her here in the first place.

        It had been the music of course. She had wanted to find the source of the music. However for the most part she decided her experience had been rather disappointing.

        (Arona was never at her best when hungry and this was causing her to quickly forget some of the wonderful experiences with the music and the paintings, and take a rather negative view of events.)

        All I have done is wander around dark passageways really.

        And now, to top it all off, apparently things are shifting. In the name of heaven what does that mean?

        AND if one more person tells me to use my magic I will probably scream or something!

        Perish the thought, came a grumpy voice from a particularly dark corner. Your moaning is quite sufficiently bad enough.

        And Mandrake the cat emerged from the shadows and made himself comfortable on Arona’s lap. This is great, much more comfortable than the ground he purred.

        Oh cute, said Arona, a talking cat.

        Cute yourself, responded Mandrake, love your cape by the way.

        (Mandrake was prone to sarcasm, considering it a perfectly valid form of humour.)

        Arona stroked Mandrake’s soft black coat and tried her hardest to work out what to do. It was all feeling a bit bleak at the moment, the ever changing cave, the half light, the heat and humidity… and especially her hunger.

        Mandrake sighed in an impatiently eggsagerated sort of a way.

        Heavens to murgatroyd¹, how can I relax with your incessant thinking? Okay so here’s an easy one for you: what’s the most important thing about magic?

        All of a sudden Arona felt a flash of lightness and a sense of new energy moving within her.

        of course! She exclaimed delightedly, hugging the less than enthusiastic Mandrake, you have to believe in it!

        [¹] Note from the editor: Mandrake being a very educate cat from noble ancestors, some of its speech may be difficult to grasp for the average reader, which was certainly not the case for the astute Arona.
        Anyway, here is some complement on that ‘Murgatroyd’ .

        #214

        Speaking of dreams, Quintin suddenly remembered he had dreamed of a woman detective, by night, near a museum in London, in the 1920s. She was investigating a case of a strange disappearance near a small replicate of an Egyptian pyramid that had been put here for display. There had been an exposition of ancient artifacts in the museum, which had been recently unearthed by a team of archaeologists and graciously lent by Egypt’s officials.

        Strangely enough, he felt the woman detective was linked to the story, and was in fact Dory. He could feel the other participants were people closely related to the woman too…

        He didn’t really expect Dory would be giving him her two pence on this quaint dream…



        Actually, thinking of Dory made Quintin remember a notepad photocopy that she had sent him last year when she had been in Madagascar for the first time, visiting some local caves. He never actually gave much thought to these funny drawings, but now they seemed to have some kind of interesting connection to all of this…

        #208

        When Bernhard, making his black panther puppet Archie speak, had answered the tongue-in-cheek burning question that was on everyone’s lips:

        Does Dory’s part of the story seem logical to you?

        the answer had come as a surprise to many…

        Yes he had answered… adding a few moments afterwards, though that there is some mistranslation within the interpretation. [¹]

        Archie also said that we were moving to a center of a seesaw which represents within your understanding an awareness of “it matters not”.

        Ahahah, how greatly befuddling a new riddle would that be? Perhaps the answer was very simple too. Something like “egg”…

        All that Quintin was sure, was that Dory surely enjoyed bouncing on seesaws juggling with a basketful of eggs!

        Perhaps, it mattered not after all… Perhaps, perhaps not… or not yet…

        Well, Archie had also admitted during the night he didn’t really care being a parrot in that story… Perhaps he had finally lost it too, as would certainly say Fiona, who was their last beacon of sanity in that insane adventure.

        [¹] Note from your impartially unbiased reporter: :yahoo_whew: (phew)

        #207
        F LoveF Love
        Participant

          Fiona had just received another rambling note from Dory, and was feeling rather bemused and perplexed.

          Dory’s notes seemed to make less and less sense. The worst thing was that lately Quintin and Yann appeared to be following her lead. Of course she could be mistaken, the difference in language could be confusing things .. and there was all the merging they had been doing lately which meant they usually spoke in riddles. Fiona spoke very little French, just a few handy phrases such as “hello” and “butt”.

          But as for Dory …

          Fiona was a kindhearted person and tolerant of others. But these tales Dory was spinning appeared to be increasingly bizarre and nonsensical. Endless beginnings which never seemed to lead anywhere.

          Am I being too rational? Fiona wondered, always humbly willing to accept her own shortcomings, or “dark corners” as Quintin liked to describe them.

          One day, after a particularly outrageous note from Dory about an orgy in her kitchen with 57 Italians she had to cook for, Fiona felt compelled to gently and tactfully question Dory.

          You are just out for revenge, Dory had hissed at her. It’s just a dream, I think … hmmmmm or am I a dream … or is it all a dream ….. I will go and ask Archie! and off she had dashed in a flurry of colourful shawls.

          Bugger this, thought Fiona. Revenge had been the last thing on her sweet natured mind. With no more housework left to complete, she decided to go for a walk to the nearby cafe to take her mind from all this madness.

          #136

          Inside her cave, Malvina was playing the harp. She was happy and in harmony with the Worlds.

          She came from a long lineage of Light Sorcerers and Sorceresses, but had preferred to the fuss of a great career in one of the quarreling kingdoms, a pleasant life inside this cave. The cave had been empty when she had found it, safe from some schpurniatz, but she knew how to tame them, and she had even left a few shadowy places for them to rest , hung upside down under the holes and crevices during daylight, when she had used Magix to transform the rocky walls into a comfortable dwelling place.

          She was happy, because new eggs had been laid, and they had come early this time. The eggs, she cherished not because of their gilded aspect, but because they were the sons and daughters of her mighty dragon friend Leörmn. Eggs were highly sought by greedy pirates of the Northern Seas, and though she had been as discrete as possible, she knew they had lots of informants, and her aura was spreading in the villages around, especially since she had helped that little boy who had fallen inadvertently inside the cave.

          At least, this time she would be warned by Leörmn, who was keeping watch at the entrance, and whose riddles could very well befuddle the greedy uninvited fellows into forgetting their names altogether.

          So now, she played, and played, and music notes were like soothing water drops, carried away by the rivulet inside the cave…

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        Daily Random Quote

        • “Well, Sanso” said Zhaana a trifle breathlessly, her flushed with wonder. “ The Elsepace Arrangement was certainly an eye opener, if eye opener is the right word. So what next?” Sanso laughed uproariously. “What next? What next, AHAAAHAA HA HA! What next indeed!” “What’s so funny?” asked the little girl, her face starting to crumple. “Oh don’t ... · ID #1215 (continued)
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